Talk:Tōshirō Senju
It is impossible for him to have Wood Release. Hashirama Senju is the only Senju who could use Wood Release. Yamato could only use it because he has the First's cells in him. I repeat, Hashirama Senju is the only person capable of using Wood Release, with Yamato being the only exception. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 15:08, November 4, 2010 (UTC) :Also, even if Toshiro has a legitamate reason for the wood release, how the hell does yin and yang "grant" him wood release? Besides, yin and yang is a power that is divulged from the Rinnegan, which was passed to the older brother, not the younger one. It shocks me, really, to know only me, Ten, and a select senior members here actually know the details behind Naruto. --Seireitou-shishō (My True Identity | Talk to Me :3) 15:16, November 4, 2010 (UTC) ::That last bit was completely uncalled for, Sei. --[[User:LaviBookman|'れび']] (talk to Lavi!) 15:35, November 4, 2010 (UTC) I still haven't completed this so its not put up yet but he doesn't have the original wood release. He can only manipulate pre-existing wood due to his yin yang abilities. Like the ninja in the first movies who could manipulate pre-existing snow and ice but not create any of their own. Despite that they are listed amongst Ice Release users on Naruto wiki. Similarly with him, he can't create wood like Hashirama or Yamato but can manipulate pre-existing wood and fauna. Even the techniques such as the Nativity of a World of Trees is different from the original. He carries seeds with him and infuses then with chakra to make them grow rapidly. And about the yin and yang releases, I know about that actually. I have mentioned that "But unlike his ancestors, he was blessed with the unique ability to control Yin, Yang and the Yin-Yang chakra natures." I was going to mention in his history that though his father was Senju, his mother was distantly descended from the elder son. Thats why the blood of the Sage reunited in him and gave him the yin yang abilities. --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 15:39, November 4, 2010 (UTC) :Also, concerning the yin and yang. Is it actually ever mentioned that yin-yang went to the elder son? Madara only said the yin and yang are involved in Inzanagi and powers of both uchiha and senju combine to give rise to it. But its not explicitly mentioned that both yin and yang went to the elder son. My interpretation was that the younger son who inherited the Sage's body and willpower got Yang release as it involves physical energy to breathe life into form (Wood Release is related to this in my opinion). And the older son got Yin as it represents spiritual energy and the elder son inherited the sage's eyes, powerful chakra and spiritual energy. And then when both their powers combine they give yin and yang. This is how i interpreted Madara's speech about the Izanagi during his fight with Konan. If I am missing something please let me know. --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 16:11, November 4, 2010 (UTC) Yin-Yang Release Well according to the Naruto wiki and from the words of Yamato himself, Yin-Yang Release is assumed to be the source for techniques all non-elemental jutsu. Therefore its not a unique release available only to the Rinnegan, for example Konan and her Paper techniques and her ability to form her body into paper could technically be classified as a Yin-Yang Release, since it appears that one cannot be used without the other. But Jet'ika, I would refrain from using this, "I was going to mention in his history that though his father was Senju, his mother was distantly descended from the elder son. Thats why the blood of the Sage reunited in him and gave him the yin yang abilities" as the sole reason for his Yin-Yang release. I would be happy to help you create a far more interesting, and compelling reason than ancestry here as the basis for his abilities. Just give me some to think of somethin. --- Illuminate Void 16:43, November 4, 2010 (UTC) Illuminate, that is Yin-Yang chakra which is just normal chakra. Yin-Yang Release, is a technique only capable of being used by Rinnegan users, as it allowed the Sage to create anything he wanted out of nothing. I don't think a horde of ninja are running around with that capability. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 16:59, November 4, 2010 (UTC) To be honest, I'm not completely sure which is true. If you read the link I posted, its pretty vague, and its meaning depends on the interpretation. Yamato stated that use of Yin and Yang is the source of non-elemental techniques. Are they being used together or individually? One could make an argument either way. That and it also goes on to say that the Six Paths Sage was said to have attained mastery of this release and thus created Izanagi. And if you add in the equation of what Kekkai Genkai translates into, "a technique limited to inheritance by blood" then its reasonable to assume that he passed this on via the Rinnegan, giving them...instant mastery so to speak. When Kakashi said, "look underneath the underneath" he wasn't joking. A lot of information in this series has multiple levels of meaning and shouldn't be taken at face value. We as the wiki community should strive to uncovering the depths this series has to offer. It would be an insult to the author to assume everything is just as he says it is. At least thats my personal belief. I also think any Kekkai Genkai could be potentially "learned" given enough time...but the level of genius, luck and effort it would require would be....impossible by the average shinobi. But...that doesnt mean the possibility isn't there. Nothing is impossible in the Naruto World. There is simply no such thing. And this is where the law of equivalent exchange comes into play. --- Illuminate Void 17:28, November 4, 2010 (UTC) :By that sentiment, anybody could have a Sharingan. First off, I think you are confusing "Hidden Jutsu" with "Kekkai Genkai". Example. Shikamaru's Shadow Possession is not a Kekkai Genkai, but not anybody can learn it. Sharingan cannot be just "learned". It's a genetic trait. If I learned anything from my Genetics class, it's you can't just suddenly add onto your DNA. Anyways, that's besides the point. Yin-Yang Release and Chakra are two completely different things. Release refers to the techniques used to create the Bijū, by Rikudou. And the Izanagi technique. Those are limited to the Rinnegan. The Chakra, yes, is the supposed origin of all chakra natures. Plus, stating that completely contradicts what you mentioned before, that Kekkai Genkai is "a technique limited to inheritance by blood". --Seireitou-shishō (My True Identity | Talk to Me :3) 19:03, November 4, 2010 (UTC) ::Could you please point me to the source (the manga chapter or data book entry, whichever it may be) where it is stated that only the Rinnegan has Yin-Yang? I just want to read something I seem to have missed. Thanks and Cheers! --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 22:05, November 4, 2010 (UTC) I'd like to point out that you, Ten, stated that people can create their own alternate universes, and restricting people's creativity is not cool. This here is creativity. So, I don't know what point you're making, as he should be allowed to create a character with Wood Release. It has not been stated that Wood Release is only for Hashirama and Yamato, so we shouldn't assume that. Therefore, not allowing him to have the Wood Release is unfair, as in your words; "Are we really so uptight on this site that we can't allow the bending of the storyline for the sake of fun and adventure? I'm not suggesting throwing out the canon structure (chakra, ninja, justu, etc), but rather bending the storyline to explore "What If?" Scenarios. I personally think that to restrict these things, we'd be losing a great asset to our site. ---Ten Tailed Fox talk page 03:58, November 2, 2010 (UTC)" If you have a problem with his creativity, that's hypocritical. 무극 (talk to Joker!) 22:17, November 4, 2010 (UTC) : ...Except that it was stated in the manga that Hashirama and Yamato are the only ones capable of doing it and the answer to your question is in my own quote that you tried to use against me. "What-if-Scenarios". This is not a what if scenario. This is giving a character a power that defies canon facts. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 23:30, November 4, 2010 (UTC) ::I agree with you Ten that What-if scenarios are much different from completely disregarding canon facts. And trust me I have no intentions of doing so. I am trying to make this a technique somewhat unique to him, an incomplete Wood release of sorts. Hashirama was the only one capable of doing it and then Yamato as he had his cells right. Couldn't this also be converted into something like that? Toshiro is a direct descendant and was experimented upon as a child and that awoke the Wood release powers him in, only somewhat weakened and incomplete. --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 23:41, November 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::Oh, it was? Could someone please show me this, as i've never read it anywhere. 무극 (talk to Joker!) 23:06, November 5, 2010 (UTC) :::::Actually, Seireitou, they have repeatedly shown in the series (mostly manga) that you CAN add to your DNA. Look at Danzo. He had the frickin Shodaime's arm attached to his body, along with half a dozen Sharingan. Orochimaru experimented with his body to such an extent that he was no longer even human. Deidara had mouths on his hand. Kakuzu changed his body into...that mess of black threads. Remember Orochimaru's experiments? Yamato is a prime example of this. So is Isaribi '''in the filler-arc with Anko. And, ask yourself this, how did bloodlines come into existence in the first place? The technique itself had to have been developed first, prior to bonding it to the DNA. Or at least the very basics of it. Yes, I believe that one could potentially learn a bloodline, Orochimaru technically did this, example - the Cursed Seal. He took what was obviously a Kekkai Genkai from Jugo, and turned it into a technique he could apply to other people. I don't trample on canon, if anything canon supports most of my own ideas. Not to mention that Fuuinjutsu basically trumps anything deemed impossible. From sealing objects to, hell even summoning a '''god, it can do anything. --- Illuminate Void 23:37, November 5, 2010 (UTC) :::::: Kou, is it really so hard to get the references off of Narutopedia? It is what they're there for. I quote, *" Hashirama Senju was the originator of this ability, evidenced by the fact that none of his relatives have been shown capable of using Wood Release." :::::Sage of the Six PathsIzanagiMadara Uchihatailed beastsTen-Tailed BeastNagatoYin-Yang_Release :::::: Furthermore, Madara, Danzō, and Yamato all refer to this technique as Shodai's power. Other than implantations, no one other than Shodai has show the power to use Wood Release. Madara and Orochimaru state that controlling the power itself is extremely difficult, shown when Danzō was almost consumed by it, and when Yamato was 1 out of 60 implantees that survived the initial injection. Keep in mind also that both Danzō and Yamato's versions are incomplete, just as Jet is trying to say his character's powers are, and these effects still happened to them. I think its safe to say that the only one truly capable of having Wood Release is Hashirama. If you wish to continue debating it, I will only go find more reasons from the manga to reject your claims, as you claims simply don't match the facts. What you are suggesting is no different from me saying that a Jinchūriki's Tailed beast could somehow wind up inside their ancestor with no other reason other than they're related and share a surname. That's how absurd and un-canonical your claims are. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 01:21, November 6, 2010 (UTC) :::::: :::::: I'm not debating the potency of any Wood Release, if anything I was proving that DNA can be altered. And no, your rebuffs dont make my own claims absurd or un-canonical in the least. I never once stated that implanting DNA was a perfect art, thats something you assumed. However the fact of the matter is....its done within the series. Canon has given us, plenty of information on the basics of chakra and the Naruto World. Yet any mention of trying to adapt or modify canon is considered blasphemy. Why? I dont get it. I cant even tie something into canon without someone blowing it out of proportions. Its like...there's an unwritten heirarchy. First there's canon, then there's you and your creations which can never amount to any canon character, ability or power displayed. But if I were to make...a completely unrelated release with no canonical backing...a bloodline that granted me similar powers to anything canon (like a doujutsu that gets upgraded when you get a siblings eye) basically anything not considered canon, but just as strong its fine. That. I find absolutely ridiculous. But whatever. Oh and in regards to the Yin-Yang Release and Chakra, I give you this, straight from Naruto Wiki that some admins believe is law: :::::: "The had such a mastery over the Yin-Yang Release that he created . He used Yin to make his dreams take form, and then used Yang to make his fantasies real. He could even make them come to life. According to , the Sage used Izanagi to create the out of the chakra from the . also had mastery of the Yin-Yang Release, as well as the other elemental releases by age 10." Like I said earlier...they had mastery, something that can be achieved by one (of course it should be with a well-written, and reasonable backstory/RP). Dont believe me? Here's the page: . As far as I'm concerned...the Yin-Yang release isnt specific to the Rinnegan. Everyone can learn to master it. The bloodline is just a cheat code to do it quicker. --- Illuminate Void 02:39, November 6, 2010 (UTC) :Um.. I believe he was talking to me. Hinōmaru-sama (talk to Joker!) 02:43, November 6, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm not suggesting you cannot tie things into the canon (I do it all the time), nor am I saying you can't expand on canon ideas; Kou simply got me into the argument of where in the canon it states that Hashirama is the only true user of Wood Release, with Yamato and Danzō being the only exceptions. The only reason I brought it up here is because Jet originally gave a very weak basis as to why his character had Wood Release. If you want to find someway for Wood Release to be usable outside Hashirama, fine, I don't care at all. I'm just trying to prove to Kou that, canonically, its impossible. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 02:46, November 6, 2010 (UTC) :::I agree my initial reason was a little weak as I had just come up with the idea when I had started this and was hoping to come up with a proper reason for why he had even the incomplete powers as I went on with the article. But what I have now is listed at the end of this page and I would like to hear what you guys think of that. --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 02:52, November 6, 2010 (UTC) History of Toshiro Senju Oh, I did think of something for his history Jet'ika. You said this character is the protagonist in Naruto Keisho, which takes place 100 years after Shippuden. Perhaps, that is where you should elaborate. What happened to the Senju and the remnants of their clan? Was it rebuilt? Scattered to the four corners of the world? Did they have a resurgence in Konoha, becoming its leaders once again? If you can figure out what happened during this time, it would make more sense for how your character developed. --- Illuminate Void 17:34, November 4, 2010 (UTC) :Actually, I was thinking along the lines that the Senju had a steady resurgence over the past hundred years. Though we haven't seen any Senju in the current canon time line, there could always be a few who still use the name. It was those few I was planning to play around with. At some point in the past 100 years the Hidden Leaf had a steady decline and other villages grew stronger. At one point they were even attacked by Kumogakure. This was later found to have been orchestrated by Oni, my main antagonist. During the battle a Senju played an important role and ultimately became a hero in Konoha. During the aftermath of the war the Hokage realizes that the name Senju name still acts as a symbol of hope for the people in the village and decides to use that to revive morale within the village and begin the rebuilding process. The Senju mentioned ultimately becomes a very important Jonin in the future though he repeatedly refuses the Hokage position. He later turns out to be Toshiro's grandfather or great grandfather (depending on when the aforementioned battle takes place). Following these events the Senju slowly begin to grow again until they reach a respectable strength once more. --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 22:34, November 4, 2010 (UTC) ::I just like to note that even with the Senju name in use, they can't just have a resurfacing. Senju were born from the Sage's blood, as were the Uchiha, and over the course of so many years (you said 100), the bloodline would have been completely suppressed. Remember, Tsunade was only two generations away from Hashirama, and still didn't inherit his powers. Just wanna make that clear. --Seireitou-shishō (My True Identity | Talk to Me :3) 22:49, November 4, 2010 (UTC) :::No. no, You misunderstood me mate. I don't mean to say that their bloodline suddenly reappears :). They won't have his powers, they'll be strong but nowhere near as strong as the original Senju clan. During the current canon time line though we have Uchiha mentioned the Senju are no longer seen as a separate clan. So they most probably got distributed amongst the denizens of Konoha right? So I am saying that the Senju I mention realized that Konoha needed a symbol to build around again and so asked those who he knew had the most direct descent from the Senju clan to once again take up the Senju name and help him rebuild the clan. --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 23:08, November 4, 2010 (UTC) Hmm, ooh I have an idea. Although its...more complicated than before. Lets assume Senju Toshiro is a direct descendant. However his bloodline is too diminished for him to truly utilize the Mokuton Release. Lets create a seal of sorts (I would heavily suggest creating a seperate article explaining the details of said seal). Its form is that of the Senju Seal placed...somewhere on his body. Perhaps his naval. Its purpose and design is to forcibly draw out the latent potential of your bloodline. But like all good things it has a price. Using your Mokuton abilities is particularly draining. Similar to Kakashi and the Sharingan. For your character, he, despite this weaknesses, has made extensive use of his ability. Why? Lets say that Toshiro was a leader...or aspiring leader. Hence his candidancy for Hokage. He spent a majority of his career using his abilities and as you said Konoha needed a symbol and he intentionally or not became that symbol, and helped resurrect the clan (not genetically, Senju, translates to "a thousand skills") by gathering highly skilled shinobi and families into a single functional clan. But something happened and he deserted Konoha (he would need a damn good reason as to why if you go this route). --- Illuminate Void 23:30, November 4, 2010 (UTC) Really like this idea man. The added weaknesses will be great for character development. Also I thinking of having his grandfather or father as the figure who rebuild the clan and when Toshiro has to take up leadership he screws up big time somehow and has to leave the village. But now even your idea about focusing it all on him seem very appealing. Cheers mate! :) --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 23:41, November 4, 2010 (UTC) No prob. Hmm as for him screwing up. Do you want to add intrigue or a darker side to the character? If you go with intrigue, then perhaps another faction/group or whatever orchestrated an event, pinning treasonous charges against him, hence the reason why he had to defect. The second option is well...he did it willingly, it was discovered and later outed (basically the Orochimaru approach). Depending on how you want to go about it, but you should strive for explaining every critical detail about the character. If he defected, you should really create a seperate article about that, all things considered. Perhaps a one-shot detailing said events. Personally I wouldnt go with him making such a bad judgement call that he would have to leave Konoha. To even get to his position...you have to be quick on the feet and the mind. No way he could make such an astronomic mistake like that, unless he did it willingly or it was orchestrated by someone else. Or....he could have left for an entirely different reason than the above two. For this one, you'd have to think of something pretty clever. Perhaps he found out about some rogue organization and realized he couldnt fight as the Hokage, and thus left in order to wage a one-man war against them. Or maybe...well..something else. Just keep an open mind about these things. --- Illuminate Void 00:24, November 5, 2010 (UTC) I am currently inclined towards him getting framed for certain actions. I plan to write it out so that he himself is convinced that he is to blame and thus is exiled from the village. I have a criminal organization for the story, Hitokiri, so I can use them as the ones who caused his exile. They feared Konoha would become more powerful if he stayed and thus wanted to deprive the village from one of its greatest assets. --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 01:10, November 5, 2010 (UTC) Wood Release and Seal Ok so I will present this scenario that I hope no one will object to. I am using ideas and facts put forward by everyone here to create his abilities now. He had Hashirama's DNA in him already as he is a direct descendant. But his mother was from the bloodline of the elder son of the Sage of the Six paths. So he ended up getting the Yin Yang powers as both brothers' blood reunited in him. So at birth no wood release, just yin and yang. Seeing these powers he was kidnapped by Hitokiri, a criminal organization in my stories, and experimented upon. Using data somehow obtained from Orochimaru they transplanted more of Hashirama's DNA into him and placed a special seal on him which would draw out the wood release powers in him. But they would not be perfect and give him only incomplete control over the powers as I mentioned above. I really want to continue with this scenario as I have managed to come up with ideas to link this background with two of my main antagonists' pasts also. As well as giving Hitokiri some background. So if anyone has any problems let me know soon because my whole story will need to be altered now if I change him. Cheers! --Jet'ika (Talk | ) 02:05, November 6, 2010 (UTC) Restore This was deleted as part of the mass delete movement, could someone please restore this? - [[User:Jet'ika|'Jet'ika']] (talk) 05:27, May 18, 2013 (UTC)